The death of X11 is starting to sound more and more like the death of IPv4.

@khm wayland is a nightmare. somehow they made something worse than X.

@cancel @khm BSD started the death of Unix (see cat -v paper, etc), yet today BSD is one of the most benign unices. Same with X, it was bad in 1984, but today its alternatives have surpassed it in badness.

@khm @cancel @coldacid This is the first time I'm hearing about fundamental #wayland complaints (more than just "needs more polish") in my filter bubble. Do you have some sources that elaborate on this?

@iooioio @khm applications can't position their own windows. can't take screenshots. no color management. mandatory compositing latency.

@sirvertalot @iooioio @khm this is basically the reply that the Wayland devs gave when professionals asked if Wayland has color management. it's also typically the reply you get from random internet FOSS people when you mention Wayland doesn't have color management. "What's that?" it's just funny to see it play out for real, again.

@sirvertalot @iooioio @khm color management is something that Mac OS (just called System back then) had in 1987. IRIX and Windows had it in the 90s. X did not have it on its own but you could hack it in. Wayland people are clueless and don't even know it exists or what color management is or why it's important for anything other than trivial consumer use (though tbh consumer use these days even requires color management.)

@sirvertalot @iooioio @khm it's one of the best examples of the problems with Wayland (and X): the people making it don't really know what they're doing or what their priorities should be, but they do it anyway, and then campaign to force its adoption upon everyone else.

@cancel @iooioio @khm Yeah even just in general, open source stuff implies developers = users, which goes both ways, since the people who need stuff like this don't really get accounted for.

You see the same in localisation and so on, most developers speak english, why bother?

@sirvertalot @iooioio @khm

But yeah I realize you are just asking what it is. Color management is how you know what the 0-255 numbers are actually supposed to mean on your display. If you don't have it, they could mean anything. Wayland is just like "lol what's that" and provides no way to deal with the problem, and the forced compositing actually makes it worse than X (which also did not have it.)

@cancel @iooioio @khm Oh so it's the whole 4:4:2 thing or whatever

yeah that seems somewhat important

@sirvertalot @iooioio @khm Not exactly. What's the 0-255 supposed to mean? "Well, 0 is none, and 255 is full!" Full what?

@sirvertalot @iooioio @khm What if one person has a display that can gets very bright, like 3000 nits? If your picture of a red flower has the flower's red colors as 255 (full) it would look completely different than how it looks on your screen. In fact, now that you think about it, what's the *camera* capturing?

@cancel @iooioio @khm It does seem like it's at least being worked on, there's still activity in the issue tracker.

Then again, at typical light-speed:

>Yes, it will be merged, but I am unsure if that will happen in year 2022 yet. Definitely not in 2021.

The year of the linux desktop eh?

@sirvertalot @iooioio @khm Yeah it's a wreck. Just ridiculous. They spend their time bickering about whether or not users should be allowed to take screenshots or of it's morally acceptable for programs to set the positions of their own windows. Meanwhile they can't even display a JPEG with the correct colors. Good grief.

@sirvertalot @iooioio @khm I would call it borderline self-parody, but I don't know if people writing parody would write something as on the nose as this.

@sirvertalot @iooioio @khm You might be the random FOSS person, but I'm also the random whiner :)

@cancel @iooioio @khm Guess I'm a random internet foss person then.

Could be worse.

I found but my experience with any new wayland thing is that gnome get in the way of establishing actual standards, which is why there's the fragmentation you talked about.

@cancel @khm Cool. Thanks for elaborating.

Lack of colour management is quite a big one indeed but (without actually knowing anything about the internals) it sounds more like a missing feature than a bad design decision.

Not allowing applications to read the contents of the screen also sounds like a reasonable default. Though, of course, _some_ way of taking a screenshot must be possible.

@iooioio @khm What's the reasoning behind not allowing applications to position their own windows? It's nuts. They're playing a weird shell game with "security" the same way big tech cos use "security" to get what they want, like "think of the children"

@cancel @khm

The latency thing is surprising to me. I thought Wayland would _reduce_ latency, since it threw the networked display thing out of the window?

@iooioio @khm The networking thing is not a problem in practice for X, since 1) there's so much inefficiency in other parts of the system that a local socket is basically drowning in noise 2) X is using shared buffers for most of its stuff at this point anyway

Not that X is great or anything. It actually is not great at all. It's really not great! Which is why it's so especially disappointing that Wayland fixes basically nothing about X but also introduces tons of new problems and requirements.

@cancel @khm Well if X sucks and Wayland tries to suck less but still sucks it sounds like they're both trying to solve very hard problems. I'm just glad someone else is working on it so I can use whatever works for me. :)

@iooioio @khm They could have looked at what anyone else is doing. They came up with a bad solution twice. Not even other hobby OSs have GUIs as fucked up as X (Haiku, Plan 9/9front, SerenityOS, Essence...)

And of course, Windows and Mac don't have these weird problems, either.

@cancel @iooioio @khm but when X came out theonly alternatives were, like, ToS or GEM. Was Windows even a thing then? like wtf guy

@s8n @iooioio @cancel The Xerox Star, the Apple Lisa, Visi On, GEM, DesktMate, MSX-View, and NeWS all came out around or before the first version of X.

X got to X11 in 1987, where it stayed. By then, the Amiga Workbench, Mac OS (and GS/OS), RISC OS, GEOS, and, yes, Windows were all out by then.

@khm @iooioio I think the Xerox Cedar system also had color (presumably with print-aware accurate colors, but I can’t verify this) in the early 1980s

@cancel @khm Well I first became interested in #wayland when I got a laptop with a HiDPI display and connected it to a LoDPI monitor only to realise that X doesn't support that combination at all. That's a _massive_ bummer and not a terribly exotic usecase nowaways.

From what I can tell, there is no way around this limitation with X. If Wayland solves this, it might be worth the trade-offs for me.

@iooioio @khm X11 can do mixed DPI. Most applications don't support it, though.

@iooioio @khm Er, I dunno. It's just a part of the thing. You can find lots of info about it online.

@iooioio @cancel An ok summary here:

But, long story short, I prefer to use multiple X Screens, which is a forgotten art.

@iooioio @khm @cancel I'm mostly just picking up the sentiment of others, but what it seems to come down to is that the trade-offs made in Wayland's design end up with a different set of issues for non-networked displays with, at best, no corresponding net positive for developers. tl;dr is that some changes are an improvement over X11, but others make it just as bad, or in some cases worse, than what it intends to replace.

@cancel @khm In what way worse?

Minimal compositors like Sway, Hikari and dwl are nice. wlroots hides the complexity quite nicely.

@mc @khm programs can't position their own windows. mandatory compositing latency. can't take screenshots without bypassing the protocol. it's so restricted (though not for the sake of simplicity, for sure) that widespread use will mean terrible fragmentation as everyone makes their own ways to bypass it to get stuff done.

@mc @khm and we're already seeing this happen. take a look at the screenshot programs for wayland that have per-compositor/wm behavior. for what gain? why are we even doing this? nobody has been able to even tell me what the advantage is except that it's "modern"

@khm Well not a lot tough, it's possible to go by without X11 (SailfishOS doesn't have X11, neither does my gentoo laptop) but going without IPv4… oh dear. X11 is a lot easier to replace because it doesn't literally form the backbone of our daily things - in fact most of the essential infrastructure is headless

@khm you'll have to take my /24 out of my cold dead hands.

@khm well maybe if Wayland didn't end up as a cluster fuck of its own... Other than true believers, everyone seems to prefer dealing with the Devil they already know.

@coldacid that's the exact point of the OP. 😁👍

I agree. Everybody likes to ignore new things because change is bad. Once you get used to it neither IPv6 nor Wayland are problematic and both actually have advantages. I like my full screen non-tearing HD video.


@fedops @khm oh, they're each still problematic in their own ways, just as IPv4 and X11 are. It's just a different set of trade-offs.

@khm As long as many websites and US ISPs are unwilling to move to IPv6, IPv4 is here to stay.

X11 feels concerning since it has been so long since updates.



"small, elegant and successful systems are replaced by bloated systems with over-engineering, due to inflated expectations and overconfidence in the need for change."

Brooks, Jr., Frederick P. The Second-System Effect 1975

@ssafar @yrabbit @khm well, yes, directly X10 but back in that timeframe (early to mid 80s) there were a lot of different attempts at window managers for Unix ... NeWS for one base on postscript ..more here (some X based). This was about the time Windows and Mac (and Atari STs and Amigas) we becoming a thing. Everybody was In the window game...but as Bill Joy (Sun founder) put it "Rasterops on wheels (X) won"

@khm fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck

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