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@sir Please don't use Discord for FOSS projects, either.

@jakob @sir what do y'all suggest that's approachable for people who got into the tech space circa 2013 onwards?

I highlight that because IRC is hard for me to get into (not me but I've heard). I see mattermost.com/ and gitter.im/ as alternatives but one is closed + requires github login

@sir What's easy and simple for you may not be for others. Interfaces may be perplexing for some; channel discovery, etc.

It sounds like you've worked with it for some time; I have as well for close to a decade. It doesn't dismiss that if you want people in; you have to reach out to where they are at times.

@jakob

@sir @jalcine @jakob I use The Lounge for IRC (thelounge.chat/) hosted via a Cloudron.io instance, but there's also Matrix (open, federated, e2e encryption optional)

@sir I have and suggested it plenty of times for people! I do wish people used it more.

However, again, it requires people to set up an instance for their own use. I don't think it'd be hard to make it into a turn-key service or them having a one-click deploy to something like Heroku @jakob

@sir IRC is not super user friendly.

A mix Matrix & Discourse, maybe?

@jalcine @jakob

@jalcine @jakob @sir

I am having a great time with matrix! you can message in markdown, have a group call, optionally host your own server, and it uses double ratchet (signal's encryption).

If you wanna derp around and check it out, I suggest you download the app riot.im, and if you want I run a server at whomst.online :>

@the_gayest_doggo @sir @jakob @jalcine +1 for Matrix, it's great!
It's also very easy to bridge to irc (transparantly!!!), so all the irc nerds will be happy too :P

@f0x @the_gayest_doggo @jakob @jalcine Matrix is the best IRC bridge but it still annoys IRC users when Matrix users try to use Matrix-specific features on it

@f0x @the_gayest_doggo @sir @jakob @jalcine matrix is poorly designed, irc is poorly designed (nobody follows the core standard anymore and there are hundreds of nonstandard vendor extensions), i honestly dont know how to feel about xmpp other than the fact that historically there have been a lot of competing extensions for the same features and a bunch of mediocre xmpp clients

@wowaname @f0x @the_gayest_doggo @jalcine @sir I can look past "poorly designed," especially since new versions of both specs are being developed

@jakob @sir @jalcine @the_gayest_doggo @f0x except that isnt how it works in reality. the need for backwards compatibility will forever curse the protocols that get "upgraded" and then we're stuck with partial adoption and an even messier protocol than we started out with
@jakob @sir @jalcine @the_gayest_doggo @f0x irc, matrix, and xmpp all have an equal downfall: they're all plaintext ergo not binary safe, and as a result it's that much more difficult to implement filesharing, voice, video, and other multimedia features. we end up with bolted-on functionality for all that, or serialising binary data into plaintext (base64 or character escape sequences for instance) and just causing it to be overall inelegant

@wowaname @f0x @the_gayest_doggo @jalcine @sir Have you looked at the IRCv3 spec? I don't think it has a bad approach to backwards compatibility. As for the issue of features like voice/video, my mentality is that a chat protocol shouldn't be a monolith in terms of capabilities. If you need those features, bring in another piece of software to supplement it, like Mumble

@jakob @sir @jalcine @the_gayest_doggo @f0x whether the ircv3 spec is good or not doesnt account for the fact that irc has a stubborn culture surrounding it. two very big irc networks still lack nickname registration services and most "modern" irc additions because they're happy with their own thing and don't want anything to change. ircv3 is going to be poorly adopted; anyone who's been on irc for any good length of time knows this
@jakob @sir @jalcine @the_gayest_doggo @f0x >my mentality is that a chat protocol shouldn't be a monolith in terms of capabilities.

i'm careful about this too and i dont know what would be the best balance for that. honestly i lean toward having one handle for that, but im happy with anything that works well and seamlessly in practice. im just thinking about stuff like phone numbers being used for both voice and text

>If you need those features, bring in another piece of software to supplement it, like Mumble

mumble's alright for group voice but for one-on-one it's kinda much. also there's no decent foss solution for video yet
@wowaname Jitsi works pretty good, for both voice and video. It's also integrated nicely in Riot, the most popular matrix client.

I think it's nice to have messages be just json, for files etc they can just link to the media repo (like matrix does)
@f0x is jitsi its own thing? i thought it was part of xmpp (using the jingle extension or w/e) but their site makes it look like something else
@wowaname yesh it's standalone, but integrates well with matrix for example.
@wowaname See jitsi meet, I was planing on deploying my own server, but I have nextcloud talk running now so I may settle on that @f0x Ji
@wowaname @jakob @sir @jalcine @the_gayest_doggo @f0x Speak outloud the name of KRISHNA and google "Science of Self Realization online" and click the first link, the vedabase dot com one. You can read the book for free online and it will give you transcendental knowledge of God and how to attain liberation so you can be free.

@wowaname @f0x @the_gayest_doggo @jalcine @sir I'm hopeful that new big networks will come onto the scene in response to the current big networks not adopting IRCv3, but you do raise a good point on adoption of newer versions of these chat specs

@jakob @sir @jalcine @the_gayest_doggo @f0x @wowaname Speak outloud the name of KRISHNA and google "Science of Self Realization online" and click the first link, the vedabase dot com one. You can read the book for free online and it will give you transcendental knowledge of God and how to attain liberation so you can be free.

@wowaname @jakob @f0x @jalcine @sir can you elaborate on the flaws of matrix's design? I agree with the irc discourse but I have a different impression of the matrix spec

@wowaname @jakob @f0x @jalcine @sir two of these complaints are opinions about the code base and another three are verifiably false.

Security audit: matrix.org/blog/2016/11/21/mat

I am able to moderate rooms just fine, I have been able to boot users, set themes, and control the use or non use of encryption.

Attached is a screenshot of the UI allowing me to group rooms by priority.

@the_gayest_doggo @sir @jalcine @f0x @jakob ive never attempted to run synapse because i hear nothing but complaints about mem usage and whatever else, i used riot for android and had quite a few complaints about it (dont remember and dont care enough to reinstall it and find out), authentication methods feel like a mess, joining large channels is slow as hell, double-ratchet isnt scalable (but as @xj9 said, there's no suitable replacement on the horizon for that), and both the c2s and s2s implementations dont need to be https/json, especially if they are expected to be signed and contain binary information – im uncomfortable with this recent theme of pigeonholing all new protocols to fit into RESTful http terms
@wowaname @the_gayest_doggo @sir @jalcine @jakob @xj9
I run synapse just fine.
Riot android is a bit clunky but works (much much better than android xmpp or irc)
Authentication is just user/password?
I think there's a pretty big double-ratchet testing room which works just fine
Matrix transport doesn't *need* to be http/json, it's just the current implementation
@f0x @the_gayest_doggo @sir @jalcine @jakob @xj9
>I run synapse just fine.
thanks for the anecdote, ive heard my own share of people hating everything about synapse setup and runtime, and that's done well to discourage me from wasting my time on it. plus it's written in python and that doesn't speak well for performance either. all the other server implementations are alpha quality and i dont want to run alpha software in production; there's bound to be just as many issues with that

>Riot android is a bit clunky but works (much much better than android xmpp or irc)
your opinion

>Authentication is just user/password?
what's the deal with homeserver vs identity server then?

>Matrix transport doesn't *need* to be http/json, it's just the current implementation
what is this supposed to mean? it's just as much a part of the de facto protocol at this point, and nobody's going to bother changing to anything else, so you might as well say by changing the transport you're changing the entire protocol
@wowaname @the_gayest_doggo @sir @jalcine @f0x @jakob

i super regret using synapse for family chat server b/c now i'm stuck with it for the foreseeable future. getting everyone into chat was too difficult to repeat for a long while.

compared to ejabberd or prosody synapse is VERY resource intensive for something that is presumably doing the same job.

matrix ux intentionally makes using alternate homeservers confusing for average user. pretty stupid of them imo. its not like fedi or email users are unable to sign in because you ask them what server they are on.

@xj9 @wowaname @the_gayest_doggo @jalcine @f0x @jakob stickers and whoever invented them should be burned at stake in the town square

@xj9 @wowaname @sir @jalcine @f0x @jakob it doesn't do the same thing as jabber tho. It also does encrypted sip.

Run ejabberd or prosody with whatever ungodly mess of unmaintained XEPs you need to do jitsi and it will probably take up similar resources, and even if it doesn't matrix is still going to be more reliable in feature set between servers.

@xj9 @wowaname @sir @jalcine @f0x @jakob hot take: the xmpp ecosystem is garbage and you can't count on being able to do extremely basic things like... Send pictures to users on another server.

@the_gayest_doggo @jakob @f0x @jalcine @sir @xj9 dont tag me in this, i spoke out against xmpp (although i do use it for one-on-one instant messaging simply because it's the least problematic protocol for that purpose that i have the ability to adapt at the moment)

@xj9 @jakob @f0x @jalcine @sir @wowaname

Proof: matrix doesn't require admins who dont give a shit to include and activate random plugins for basic chat functionality

@wowaname @jakob @f0x @jalcine @sir @xj9 no I'm definitely going for the inconsistent feature set problem.

Personally I found prosody leagues more complicated to install and set up than synapse; but in the end my biggest gripe with xmpp is that you can't rely on being able to do normal chat things like send a meme or encrypt communication (OTR is ass admit it).

@the_gayest_doggo @xj9 @sir @jalcine @f0x @jakob nobody uses OTR anymore though? we've all switched to OMEMO now
@the_gayest_doggo @xj9 @sir @jalcine @f0x @jakob untag me from this now, i dont want to take part in this conversation anymore
@the_gayest_doggo @xj9 @sir @jalcine @f0x @jakob it's one thing to have opinions, it's another to be completely wrong. https://omemo.top/

i'm actually done with this conversation now
@wowaname @the_gayest_doggo @xj9 @sir @jalcine @f0x @jakob Speak outloud the name of KRISHNA and google "Science of Self Realization online" and click the first link, the vedabase dot com one. You can read the book for free online and it will give you transcendental knowledge of God and how to attain liberation so you can be free.
@the_gayest_doggo @xj9 @sir @jalcine @f0x @jakob @wowaname Speak outloud the name of KRISHNA and google "Science of Self Realization online" and click the first link, the vedabase dot com one. You can read the book for free online and it will give you transcendental knowledge of God and how to attain liberation so you can be free.

@xj9 @jalcine @f0x @jakob OK I'll be back in half a week when I finally have a fully functioning xmpp server with sip plugins and encryption LOL

@the_gayest_doggo @jalcine @jakob @sir remember that Riot/matrix is easily able to be bridged with IRC, Slack, Gitter, and Mattermost, so you don't have to stick with just one if you don't want to.

@jalcine @sir @jakob
Matrix, ie. Riot.im, is a very solid Slack alternative, which is seeing increasing pickup within the FOSS community in particular. And it bridges with IRC, so you can connect to existing IM discussion communities easily too.

It's entirely FOSS, *and* is a distributed protocol, which I'm presuming us folks here on the Fediverse agree is generally the right approach!

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