@gid

one thing I find frustrating is that there *have* been things he was called on, after which he did modify his schtick

just not lately

@ptvirgo @ehashman

@deejoe @gid @ehashman

I "violently" agree that
RMS makes too many mistakes to last forever.

But I think his weakness is a lack of empathy. I want his replacement to have a *lot* of empathy.

Enough empathy to say "let's be nice to the old guard as they retire."

Someone who says "it's not about pushing him out," while still pushing him out, seems likely to develop more of the same problems.

We need people who care enough to care about the effects of their actions, regardless of their justification.

@ptvirgo @deejoe @gid I strongly agree with Matthew Garrett in that I don't want to see RMS replaced; we need to remove the necessity of having a single figurehead leader in the free software community: mjg59.dreamwidth.org/52587.htm

@ehashman @ptvirgo @deejoe @gid I think the problem here is not "RMS should be replaced" but that somebody should just do it.

Last time I heard RMS talking he seemed to be kind of angry and tired and he explicitly asked others to carry this thing on instead of him.

I don't think he insists to be the only one, he just happens to be a prominent figure of the free software movement

@saper @ehashman @ptvirgo @deejoe @gid I've heard him call for others to spread the message years ago in some of his talks.

It seems people don't feel the need to while he's still up there. But more people would cover more ground.

@alcinnz @ehashman @ptvirgo @deejoe @gid I think the problem is something else: with all shortcomings RMS lives the way he preaches. I will be much less convinced by somebody giving their Free Software, Free Society presentation with slides coming out of their MacBook. I feel guilty typing this on an iPad myself.

@saper @alcinnz @ehashman @ptvirgo @deejoe @gid yup, for all his faults, he lived his principles. That's why he's been the leader for so long. Others would likely dilute that. But I hope a worthy new leader will come forward. (Microsoft certainly doesn't want that, though!)

@lightweight @saper @ehashman @ptvirgo @deejoe @gid All I can say is that if I'm ever given the chance to give a presentation, you won't have that issue with me.

I love elementary OS! And I'm hoping to replace my iPhone with a Librem 5 soon.

@alcinnz @lightweight @ehashman @ptvirgo @deejoe @gid many of us try to switch... and we either don't have a platform to switch to or we can't give up using the gadget. I don't think Librem will have a free software radio interface (baseband). RMS simply refuses to use a mobile phone. "Easy".

@saper @alcinnz @ehashman @ptvirgo @deejoe @gid the thing RMS has done is to a) show us it can be done (and understand the trade-offs) and b) gives us an ideal of consistency to strive for. We all have different priorities. I still have a few minor niggling proprietary dependencies, but *very* few compared to anyone else I know... it's all relative.

@lightweight @alcinnz @ehashman @ptvirgo @deejoe @gid that's fine but this is not what Stallman was saying. I frankly do not think it will be a good thing to replace one person with few people delivering watered-down message.

Funny, I never considered myself a true hard core stallmanist

@saper @alcinnz @ehashman @ptvirgo @deejoe @gid don't worry, I'm a strong supporter of Stallman's commitment to Free Software and I am disgusted by the "guilt by accusation" mob approach his detractors took.

Follow

@lightweight

It's too bad people have to continually conflate support for free software with support for him.

Some of us support his free software work while recognizing and acknowledging his weaknesses.

So, when you refer to his "detractors" do you mean anyone who might criticize him about anything? Do you mean for him to be accepted and rejected in all-or-nothing fashion?

@saper @alcinnz @ehashman @ptvirgo @gid

@deejoe @alcinnz @ehashman @ptvirgo @gid Correct me if I am wrong - I understand that @lightweight has an issue with "guilt by association" concept, not about all-or-nothing acceptance.

@saper

His statement lumps anyone with any criticism into a category: Detractors.

That doesn't even get into the specifics of the criticism, not all of which is "guilt by association".

@alcinnz @ehashman @ptvirgo @gid @lightweight

@deejoe @alcinnz @ehashman @ptvirgo @gid @lightweight I am not a native English speaker, that is how I understood this.

The association fraud is here:

" because they are filled to the brim with so, so many shitty men.

Jeffrey Epstein. Marvin Minsky.

Richard Stallman."

It's so easy to get added to that list.

@saper

Leaving aside how shitty they are, or not, I will note I said

"not all of which"

That is to say, there may be guilt by association here, but there's more to it than that. Enough to matter.

@alcinnz @ehashman @ptvirgo @gid @lightweight

@saper @alcinnz @ehashman @ptvirgo @gid @lightweight

Also, not sure about you, but I find it quite easy to avoid flying to private islands to party with women >40 years younger than I am. I avoid that *all* the time.

@deejoe @alcinnz @ehashman @ptvirgo @gid @lightweight as far as I know Stallman didn't go there. Maybe that will be revealed in the next part on, ahem, Medium.com?

@deejoe @alcinnz @ehashman @ptvirgo @gid @lightweight But Stallman is added to the list as if he were there. This is guilt by association.

@saper

Ah, I understand your confusion. You're behind on the story.

Understanding that minors cannot give consent is Consent 101 material, a sort of "Hello, world!" of consent. This is easy mode, something that if you get wrong, you are probably lost on more complex situations. Like, say, those that might occur managing a non-profit foundation.

@alcinnz @ehashman @ptvirgo @gid @lightweight

@saper

Stallman spent more than a decade, as best we can tell, failing to grasp this "Hello, world!" level of consent.

He certainly got it wrong in those emails

mastodon.sdf.org/@deejoe/10280

He eventually came around, but it was far too little, far too late.

@alcinnz @ehashman @ptvirgo @gid @lightweight

@saper @deejoe @alcinnz @ehashman @ptvirgo @gid my main issue is the "guilt by accusation" - I reject the collapse "natural justice" where the accused is innocent until proven guilty and has "right of response".

@deejoe @saper @alcinnz @ehashman @ptvirgo @gid no. I have often cringed at his lack of EQ, but I've spent time with him, so I get it. I mean he was subjected to a witch hunt by people joined a righteous mob who just jumped on a band wagon most knew very little about...

@deejoe @saper @alcinnz @ehashman @ptvirgo @gid detractors wasn't the best word choice - people who condemned him (falsely) based on a very superficial reading of hearsay from others. He unwisely says things that involve a highly charged topic that are easily misconstrued. But there's no indication he participated in any crimes.

@lightweight

if you think him not guilty of crimes you might want to avoid bringing words like 'guilt' and 'crimes' into the discussion

one can be wrong, and unfit for a role, without it being a crime

@saper @alcinnz @ehashman @ptvirgo @gid

@deejoe @saper @alcinnz @ehashman @ptvirgo @gid indeed - however, the coverage of this entire debacle has been very fluid in its innuendo. It's crucial to clarify the place of those concepts in all this.

@deejoe @saper @alcinnz @ehashman @ptvirgo @gid ideally, I would've wanted people close to him to encourage him to step down from his organisational leadership and promotional roles a while ago, while maintaining his #FOSS thought leadership (in which he is peerless). The way this went down is an indictment on social media and the way it enables mob rule.

@lightweight @deejoe @alcinnz @ehashman @ptvirgo @gid I managed to got to the bottom of few past accusations of Stallman and I had to conclude that he got at least misunderstood or got willfully misinterpreted. This time a Medium story tries to equate the deeds of three men based on fragile association. I don't want RMS to be put on a pedestal or protected because "free software is dear to us", but I insist that he has to be treated fairly. But that's not going to stop the mob. I'm out of this.

@deejoe @saper @alcinnz @ehashman @ptvirgo @gid the leaders of that mob were very mean spirited, and I think will eventually be mortified by how they're celebrated by the proprietary corporations whose dirty work they did for them. They eliminated the main barrier to GAFAM's full co-option (EEE) of #FOSS. (which they only ever refer to as #OSS - they never mention Freedom, because they're working hard to kill it)

@deejoe @saper @alcinnz @ehashman @ptvirgo @gid freedom isn't optimally profitable. They want a population of good little proprietary hostages locked in like dairy cows, waiting to be milked.

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