@tesseract @feld @eldaking

Definitely. We should absolutely dissolve the system responsible for lifting billions out of poverty and which led to the highest standard of living in human history and immediately replace it with, what.. communism I suppose?

Yeah, that’ll work out great. I mean, it always has before, right? :ablobrollingeyes:

@wolfie @feld @tesseract@witches.live @eldaking this "system responsible for lifting billions out of poverty" sounds like a good candidate for a capitalism replacement

@amsomniac @feld @tesseract @eldaking

this “system responsible for lifting billions out of poverty” sounds like a good candidate for a capitalism replacement

That system is capitalism.

@wolfie @amsomniac @eldaking @tesseract you mean the same system that does everything in its power to not pay people a living wage?

You mean the same system that literally invented slavery?

I think people forget what capitalism really is. Those who say socialism/communism killed more people are twisting facts and history.

Capitalism:

- sweat shops
- slavery
- making people homeless and starving when not necessary
- denying people healthcare so they die
- #1 cause of pollution which kills people every day (air quality kills people every day; doesn't have to be toxic sludge or radioactive materials; it's less profitable to choose environmentally friendly approaches)
- the reason why America's food is terrible causing diabetes and heart disease at alarming rates

I could go on and on.

When you look at capitalism through a very narrow lens it seems like the best solution to everything. We should instead be treating capitalism like the danger it is and carefully regulating it to prevent this stuff.

A better balance that still promotes innovation can be achieved. We aren't even trying. We gave up around 1970.

@feld @amsomniac @eldaking @tesseract

you mean the same system that does everything in its power to not pay people a living wage?

Yes, I mean the system that pays people what their labor is worth. As unpopular as it is to say, flipping burgers is not worth $15USD (or whatever the local currency equivalent is) an hour. Want to make more money? One should improve their skills. My goodness, it has never been easier in history to learn new things and pick up new skills.

You mean the same system that literally invented slavery?

Huh, wasn’t aware that capitalism went back to ancient Egypt or even before. Or did you think that slavery just simply didn’t exist prior to the 18th century or so? Slavery is awful and an affront to all humankind, however it was neither invented by nor made worse by capitalism.

You want to say that people forget what capitalism is and then that people who say that communism et al killed off more people is just twisting facts and history. Then off you list off a bunch of capitalism’s supposed terrible evils.

Even if we pretend that they’re all true, they aren’t but lets just pretend, none of them are inherent in the system nor a direct result of the guiding principals and ideas of the system. On the other hand, the hundred odd million dead or more that can be laid at the feet of communism are a direct result of the core principals and ideas of the system. For all its ills, capitalism doesn’t generally result in famines, forced labor, mass land evictions, totalitarianism and of course, failed governments. There are reasons communist governments tend to be highly oppressive authoritarian regimes.

People flee communist regimes and risk life and limb to get out and into the Capitalist hell-scape you seem to think exists. People build makeshift rafts to leave Cuba, not go to it. Why is that?

I could go on myself. However, I’ll just toss it over to history. No system is perfect. No implementation of any imperfect system will be perfect itself. However, one system or set of systems has reliably lead to mass death, starvation, oppression (for real oppression, not the pseudo-oppression people whine about from time to time), and worse. One system invariably leads to poverty and stagnation for the masses. The other has lifted more people out of poverty in less time than anything else in history. One leads to true concentration of wealth and power in the hands of those fortunate enough to be part of the State apparatus. The other may result in billionaires, but it also results in millions being far better off as well.

There is also supreme irony in bemoaning the evils of capitalism on the Internet, from a highly advanced computer or mobile, and so on. The only thing that would make it better is if you’re connecting from an iPhone or Mac :laughing_cirno:

@wolfie @amsomniac @eldaking @tesseract I'm on my phone so it's a pain in the ass to respond inline so I'll keep this short:

You're punching above your weight here. If there's anyone benefitting from capitalism here it's me. I'm definitely in the top 1% of people here in the Fediverse right now. Yes I'm responding from my iPhone/Mac in my Tesla. That doesn't matter. You can enjoy the fruits of capitalism while still criticism going the terrible issues it's causing.

Slavery -- nobody enslaves people for anything but profit -- either financially or from the fruits of their labor in some other way. That's the point. It doesn't have to be modern free market capitalism. You know exactly what I'm talking about.

And you're a disgusting human being if you think any job should exist in our modern society that for 40 hours a week pays less than required to pay their rent and for their food and healthcare. That's a position of monsters and fascists. I'm not saying we need $15 universally -- honestly it should be indexed to the cost of living or some other appropriate metric. It's a big country.

Finally, if you think modern capitalism is anything but slavery for much of the workforce you are delusional. When people cannot quit their jobs and are held hostage by their employer for their housing and healthcare there is no difference. They just aren't being physically abused. (Usually... still happens! And sexually and emotionally, etc)

You need to do a lot of growing up, kid.
@wolfie @amsomniac @eldaking @tesseract additionally:

People who are working three jobs just to scrape by don't have the luxury of free time to learn a new skill. They can't take shortcuts in their life. They're cooking meals which take time because they can't afford to order out. They have kids. They're taking public transport which further eats into their free time. They have limited data plans and maybe no internet at home.

You're speaking from a place of privilege.
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@feld @eldaking @wolfie @tesseract@witches.live this, and even if you do have the time to learn new skills good luck getting a job without credentials, networking, and lots of luck, assuming you're even in an area with a lot of jobs.

Let's do build a system that pays people what their labor is worth and lifts us out of poverty, though! Your intentions are in the right place even if you mistook capitalism for something good. I've been there, I think many of us have...

@amsomniac @eldaking @wolfie @tesseract honestly my tax liability could increase by $50k and it wouldn't affect my quality of life. I'd write that check today if it meant we cover public universities and healthcare. My friends and family need it. And the reality is that any legislation to cover those wouldn't raise my taxes by $50k anyway. That's where we are at in this country: there are so many _actually_ rich people paying low taxes that even well to do people like myself would barely be affected
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