you mean the same system that does everything in its power to not pay people a living wage?
Yes, I mean the system that pays people what their labor is worth. As unpopular as it is to say, flipping burgers is not worth $15USD (or whatever the local currency equivalent is) an hour. Want to make more money? One should improve their skills. My goodness, it has never been easier in history to learn new things and pick up new skills.
You mean the same system that literally invented slavery?
Huh, wasn’t aware that capitalism went back to ancient Egypt or even before. Or did you think that slavery just simply didn’t exist prior to the 18th century or so? Slavery is awful and an affront to all humankind, however it was neither invented by nor made worse by capitalism.
You want to say that people forget what capitalism is and then that people who say that communism et al killed off more people is just twisting facts and history. Then off you list off a bunch of capitalism’s supposed terrible evils.
Even if we pretend that they’re all true, they aren’t but lets just pretend, none of them are inherent in the system nor a direct result of the guiding principals and ideas of the system. On the other hand, the hundred odd million dead or more that can be laid at the feet of communism are a direct result of the core principals and ideas of the system. For all its ills, capitalism doesn’t generally result in famines, forced labor, mass land evictions, totalitarianism and of course, failed governments. There are reasons communist governments tend to be highly oppressive authoritarian regimes.
People flee communist regimes and risk life and limb to get out and into the Capitalist hell-scape you seem to think exists. People build makeshift rafts to leave Cuba, not go to it. Why is that?
I could go on myself. However, I’ll just toss it over to history. No system is perfect. No implementation of any imperfect system will be perfect itself. However, one system or set of systems has reliably lead to mass death, starvation, oppression (for real oppression, not the pseudo-oppression people whine about from time to time), and worse. One system invariably leads to poverty and stagnation for the masses. The other has lifted more people out of poverty in less time than anything else in history. One leads to true concentration of wealth and power in the hands of those fortunate enough to be part of the State apparatus. The other may result in billionaires, but it also results in millions being far better off as well.
There is also supreme irony in bemoaning the evils of capitalism on the Internet, from a highly advanced computer or mobile, and so on. The only thing that would make it better is if you’re connecting from an iPhone or Mac
@feld @eldaking @wolfie @email@example.com this, and even if you do have the time to learn new skills good luck getting a job without credentials, networking, and lots of luck, assuming you're even in an area with a lot of jobs.
Let's do build a system that pays people what their labor is worth and lifts us out of poverty, though! Your intentions are in the right place even if you mistook capitalism for something good. I've been there, I think many of us have...
You’re speaking from a place of privilege.
Says the guy in the Tesla
I wasn’t going to respond because we obviously live on different proverbial worlds. However, the last bit there just rubbed me the wrong way so here we are.
I have two friends. We’ll call them A and B, they’re real people but I’m not dropping their names here for what should be obvious reasons. Financially speaking, they’re both in bad places. Both are currently living at home, one without even a bedroom of their own to speak of. “A” has dropped out of school and basically gave up (at least for now. “B”, who doesn’t even have a room to call their own and has student debt up to the sky is busting their ass in two jobs and will claw their way out of the hole their in. To be frank, they’re both in the holes their in due to various choices they made. The difference is that one decided they weren’t happy with their lot in life and did something about it. The other, didn’t. I’ve no idea when that one will ever leave home. “B” on the other hand is going to go on to do great things. It’s hard on “B”. But they aren’t giving up and they’ll make it. Everything you mentioned, aside from the kids, applies to her. She’ll make it though. The difference is choice.
Beyond this, I don’ t see any point in continuing this discussion with someone who wants to draw a parallel between having a job and such with legit for real slavery. Can you quit you job? Yes. You’re not a slave. Is it practical to quit? Maybe, maybe not. It just depends. Slaves don’t get to quit. Slaves don’t have a choice. Slaves don’t get to decide to take a better offer. Slaves. Don’t. Have. Choice. You want to make that comparison, there are for real slaves today and throughout the ages which would like to have a strong word for you.
Oh, and since you’re cool with your taxes going up $50k, here’s the address for the Treasury where you can send that in immediately: Gifts to the United States U.S. Department of the Treasury Funds Management Branch P.O. Box 1328 Parkersburg, WV 26106-1328
Assuming you’re in the US that is. If not, I’m sure whatever government would be appropriate has a similar thing. Have a good day
while there is much avoidable tragedy in the world today,its not like we came from a garden of eden with cars, computers, agriculture, medicine AND THEN capitalism came along and corrupted it all.
Good lord so much this.
i understand “capitalism” is the distributed approach to the economic question of ‘how to allocate finite resources?’, alternative to a centrally planned economy.
It also happens to be the one that works more often for more people under more circumstances than anything else
i must be missing something that Capitalism Haters find self-evident because i just don’t understand.
To be honest, I’ve never been able to come up with a satisfactory answer to this that is particularly good for civilized discussion so I tend to keep that to myself
Hmmm… there is some truth in the statement. Though, to one degree or another this is a thing with all known systems. Thankfully, ‘wealth’ is not zero sum and that some billionaire has more doesn’t automatically mean someone else has less or that it was taken/stolen from anyone. Ironically, in more centrally controlled systems this tends to be less true and wealth does tend to end up more zero sum and actually is taken from ABC to give to XYZ
To my way of thinking, the solution for those who are ‘down’ is not to pull the top down but to pull the bottom up
(Untagging anyone who disengaged earlier)
@wolfie @georgia @hushroom there are alternatives to capitalism besides central planning-- I recommend @xj9's wiki https://walkaway.wiki/ if you're looking to sidestep the central planning vs. markets questions and improve communities. 40% of food produced is wasted while people starve, electronics are designed to resist repair, there are plenty of houses but no one can live there-- we're not post-scarcity yet, but austerity is rarely necessary and we can do better.
For more on the relationship between (US) capitalism and slavery, check out this article from nytimes magazine:
Naomi Klein's "Shock Doctrine" is also a good book on the global effects, and Noam Chomsky can also be good but a bit dry, Bookchin's formulated a community based alternative, and Doctorow makes it fun ^_^
Doing better is a good thing. There are a lot of things on the wiki there and I’m not sure as to which part your referring to. That said, yeah, a lot of things could be improved.
One thing I’d like to see is relaxed laws and regulations or such so that the food that gets wasted isn’t wasted so much. That has started to happen in some places and this is a good thing. Push back on electronics being unrepairable is also a very very good thing especially as we end up with more and more such things in our lives.
I think the difference here though is that I don’t see any of these things as unique flaws to/in capitalism so much as inefficiencies in the system that could be adjusted. The irony is, that capitalism tends to produce surplus and other systems don’t do so well at that production. However, where society will sometimes fail is what to do with that legitimate surplus. Sometimes, giving it away is simply the best path. I just want it to be people’s choice to do so and not something dictated from on high at the point of a literal or veritable gun
As a matter of fact, yes, yes they are. Neither are overly political to be honest, however if asked in those terms I know them well enough to make an educated guess as to what they’d say.
You see, while A seems to have decided to ‘meh’ out at the moment, they’re both adults who realize that the only one who is really responsible for improving their situation are themselves. So, there you go. Yes.
https://fiscal.treasury.gov/public/gifts-to-government.html <— there for the details
No, probably not. However, if that is something you want to happen, $50k would entirely pay off the student loans of some or pay down on a bunch. Give it to them and be the change, as it were.
In any case, this isn’t likely to go anywhere productive so I’ll leave off here. Have fun
"I appreciate SDF but it's a general-purpose server and the name doesn't make it obvious that it's about art." - Eugen Rochko