Recent searches
Search options
@neurobashing @jwz In theory, there's an interop there. Anyone else can create an "indexer" of the PDBs, including BlueSky itself.
That would require a lot of money though.
ActivityPub avoids this by not along assuming that you can access the entire firehose. That's the tradeoff. There's no easy way to search the entire Fediverse (at least not like the central indexes that ATProto requires).
@egerlach @neurobashing @jwz No...There's no reliable interop here. Bluesky controls almost the entire ecosystem. The instant they decide they don't want to interop, they'll change one or more of the things they control to turn it off, even if you think some current or future aspect of AT-proto makes that impossible. (It does not.) The plan here is to build something that can only work if you trust Bluesky, for the threat model where you don't trust Bluesky. This plan is that dumb.
@marcusb @egerlach @neurobashing @jwz Isn't this exactly "anyone using XMPP can talk to Google Talk (until they couldn't because Google decided that wasn't valuable anymore and made some change entirely within their scope and broke it?)". Baffling why this lesson needs to be learned again.
@bobthcowboy @marcusb @egerlach @neurobashing
Yes, it is 100% exactly that, all over again.
Except this time with: soliciting donations from well-meaning dupes, then setting that money on fire.
@FediThing@chinwag.org@jwz @bobthcowboy @marcusb @egerlach @neurobashing
I just don't get why techy people who genuinely believe in open standards fall for this? How can they not see the problem?
Is it the power of wishful thinking? Peer pressure?
@FediThing @bobthcowboy @marcusb @egerlach @neurobashing I wish I knew.
@FediThing @jwz @bobthcowboy @egerlach @neurobashing No idea. Here’s what I’ve observed, after participating in many discussions about this over the last week*:
Half of the advocates (Cory Doctorow, et al.) approach this from the Big Idea perspective. “Interoperability(TM)” will force Bluesky’s hand. No other details matter.
The other half nerd out on some detail of AT-Proto or another: “all ya gotta do is get 20M users to host their own PDS”. No other details matter.
1/2
* do not recommend
@FediThing @jwz @bobthcowboy @egerlach @neurobashing
What’s missing is the bit in the middle: can anything be done technically to force them to interoperate? I’d argue that’s an obvious no. Ditto for the social angle - they control the users.THEY won’t pay the price to defederate.
If your goal is to have a social network resistant to billionaire capture, why not build up the network that already has that.
Whatever you think of Mastodon’s problems, it sure as hell won’t cost $30M to fix. 2/2
@marcusb @jwz @bobthcowboy @egerlach @neurobashing
If it costs a fortune to run an independent part of the network, then you're effectively handing control of it to very wealthy people and corporations. (And I wonder if that's the deliberate aim of the AT protocol?)
The genius of the Fediverse and the open web is the incredibly low starting price and the low price per user on instances that are truly independent. Such low cost independence isn't possible on any other social network. The Fediverse makes it possible for anyone to own their own part of the network.
@FediThing @jwz @bobthcowboy @egerlach @neurobashing
Yep. I think the other bit that is important is that Fedi started out federated. I don't really have an axe to grind against AT-Proto as such, other than from what I've seen it seems over-engineered, and I think over-engineered protocols have poor survivability characteristics (See, for example, Token Ring vs Ethernet, or up a level, Worse is Better)
1/3
@FediThing @jwz @bobthcowboy @egerlach @neurobashing
But, any of the *details* that make AT-proto non-federatable currently are easily solvable technical problems.
What isn't easily solved is that Bluesky didn't start of federated in practice. Bluesky has 20M users. They control almost all of the data for those users. How do you change that after the fact and distribute those users in a way that would make Bluesky think twice about messing with the protocol or defederating?
2/3
@FediThing @jwz @bobthcowboy @egerlach @neurobashing
What is Free our Feeds going to do to attract some substantial percentage of those users to turn AT-Proto into a truly federated system, and will (VC-backed) Bluesky stand by and watch their users get siphoned off?
That seems, to put it mildly, unlikely to succeed. And, at the risk of sounding like a broken record: what is the point? Why do this when Activity Pub already exists? Why not make that better for some fraction of $30M.
3/3
@marcusb @FediThing @jwz @bobthcowboy @egerlach @neurobashing I had my own go-around regarding interoperability between social networks. Cory’s idea *might* (temporarily) solve the problem of talking to users inside Bluesky, but does nothing for anyone wanting to leave there. https://findthethread.blog/Interoperable-Friendship/
@riotnrrd @FediThing @jwz @bobthcowboy @egerlach @neurobashing
Bridgy lets you talk to users on Bluesky. Bridgy does not cost $30M.
@marcusb @riotnrrd @FediThing @bobthcowboy @egerlach @neurobashing Bridgy does not even remotely solve the problems they are proposing to solve. So while Bridgy is also stupid, it does not demonstrate the point you are trying to make.
@jwz @riotnrrd @FediThing @bobthcowboy @egerlach @neurobashing
I’m aware of what Bridgy does and does not do.
The comment I responded to said “ Cory’s idea *might* (temporarily) solve the problem of talking to users inside Bluesky, ”
Bridgy *does* do that. You can use it today to talk to people on Bluesky today.
A careful reader would note: I didn’t say I thought Bridgy was great, or that it would work forever, or that is tries to solve the same problem as Free Our Feeds.
@FediThing @bobthcowboy @marcusb @egerlach @neurobashing
I often think of this quote from Alan Moore's Swamp Thing:
"Once we were very different - our psyches constantly at war - so we struck a bargain, a spiritual compromise. We would grow more like each other, there would be a balance. But a bargain with a demon is no bargain at all. Demons cheat. It is their nature. Oh yes, I have grown more like Etrigan. And he... he too has grown more like Etrigan."
@jwz @FediThing @bobthcowboy @marcusb @egerlach @neurobashing I loooooved the Alan Moore Swamp Thing run as a teenager. Up there with the very very best the comics medium has ever produced IMO. Finally got to visit the Winchester Mystery House as well. https://bbs.boingboing.net/t/winchester-mystery-house-gets-permit-for-overnight-stays-and-on-site-booze/25777/13
@codinghorror @jwz @FediThing @bobthcowboy @marcusb @egerlach @neurobashing - the Winchester Mystery House must be taught to all aspiring software engineers as an example of the wrong way to adapt to changing requirements
@clark @codinghorror @FediThing @bobthcowboy @marcusb @egerlach @neurobashing
Counterpoint, the Winchester house is an object lesson in rebranding technical debt as a desired feature.
@jwz @clark @FediThing @bobthcowboy @marcusb @egerlach @neurobashing that's actually exactly how I read it. Plus, a series of combined weird decisions made over time transforms into ad-hoc art, and that's the case here FOR SURE.